Reaction torque locked the rear sun gear against the rear one-way clutch, driving the planet carrier and output shaft forward at 69.7% (1 / 1.44) of turbine speed. The knock sensor wire harness connector was loose. When you submit a comment, you may have the option save your information for future comments, storing the info in these cookies. Input output shaft readings are almost exactly the same when driving. This is a session cookie that verifies that the user has entered valid user credentials pending receipt of the correct authentication code; the cookie normally expires when the user closes their browser (or other user agent). When the vehicle is at rest, the fluid clutch slips enough to allow the engine to idle with the transmission in gear without stalling. scheme, but it does contribute. The clutch plate itself, which was faced on both sides with cork, was splined at its hub to the transmission input shaft. I re-used the "new" valve body and decided to try out my original solenoid pack to avoid having to reprogram the PCM with the new calibration for the solenoid pack that came with the recycled transmission. Cookie Policy - Borg-Warner continued to sell the DG series for several more years to some non-U.S. customers, but U.S. automakers would not rediscover the lockup clutch for another 20 years. i take it your a writer and not a trans guy ,but maybe someone could answer the question. When starting, the fluid clutchs driving torus (the impeller) may reach a speed of 2,000 rpm or more before the driven torus (the turbine) begins to move at all, a point known as stall. By contrast, a fluid clutch always slips at least a little. 91.234.33.200 by Silver Flex SEL. *. The cookies are not set at all unless you select that option when submitting a comment. One of the fundamental differences between a fluid clutch (a fluid coupling or torque converter) and a mechanical plate clutch is slippage. I was towing my 5th wheel and the temp went up to 285. They may persist for up to two years. This and the GM automatic history are probably the most definitive descriptions of these technologies on the Internet, excepting pure design and engineering treatises. You can email the site owner to let them know you were blocked. (Google, DoubleClick, YouTube, and other related marks and logos are trademarks of Google LLC. When I replaced my transmission and converter, I replaced two mounts and the two dog bones under the engine. The replacement was a cheaper and somewhat simpler Borg-Warner unit which Studebaker-Packard called Flightomatic that deleted the DGs lockup clutch. That drum is connected via overrunning clutch (fuchsia) to the rear sun gear (purple), which is also attached to the inner race of a second overrunning clutch (also fuchsia). The valve was pushed open or closed by opposing pressures generated by a throttle-controlled valve and a centrifugal governor driven by the output shaft. In first and second gears, the converter turbine drove the front annulus (ring gear). ), These third-party cookies may be set in connection with embedded video players for content hosted on the Vimeo video platform, for purposes such as (without limitation) managing video settings, storing video preferences, providing certain functionality (e.g., allowing you to pause a video at a particular point), associating your video viewing and other activity with your Vimeo account (if you have one), showing you advertising, ensuring proper functioning of the service, preventing abuse, and/or compiling user analytics data. by SirHandyMan Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:27 pm, Post The Vimeo Cookie Policy also provides information about how Vimeo users can control the use of third-party analytics and/or advertising cookies in connection with embedded Vimeo video players. by Silver Flex SEL. The DG series transmissions were notionally three-speed automatics (although early iterations were designed to start in second gear) with a torque converter lockup clutch. You also need to move forward with viable options that will help you get your torque converter fixed. The wahFontColor and wahBgColor cookies, which are set if you alter the site's color scheme, normally expire after about 14 days, but you can remove them immediately by clicking the "Restore Defaults" button on the sidebar. Submitting a comment signifies your acceptance of our. These cookies are necessary for the site's administrative users (who wouldn't even be able to log in without them), but if you are not an administrative user, these cookies aren't normally placed on your device at all unless you somehow access the login area, which is off-limits to non-administrators. The faster it spins, the more force it provides, which causes the fluid to flow faster and harder. As an example, replace your spark plugs if they are original, replace air filter, replace PCV valve. For one, the engine would stall every time the vehicle came to a halt with the lockup clutch engaged unless the driver shifted to neutral each time. Forum. Come join the discussion about diesel performance, modifications, EGR deletes, troubleshooting, lift kits, tires, wheels, maintenance, and more! (For this cookie, "xx" will be a cryptographic hash.) But Ive never heard of anyone going that route. Reach out to your local AAMCO transmission center when youre ready for your efficient, smooth and worry-free ride. The downside to these converters is that they are heavier and more expensive than non-lockup converters. A 5 percent slippage factor means that if the impeller is spinning 3,000 rpm, the turbine is only spinning 2,850, or 5 percent slower. The second thing to look for is a lot of slippage between Desired and Actual readings for the TCC in Forscan. This is a very slick trick and can be worth up to 2.5 times engine torque! The problems come in many sizes, shapes, and forms. What to Do to Fix Slipping or Shuddering. It ran pretty good. Another important part of the torque converter and stall-speed equation is converter diameter. Click to reveal For additional information about how Google uses cookies and/or other technologies that may collect and/or process personal information, see the "Technologies" section of their Google Privacy & Terms site and the "Our advertising and measurement cookies" section of their Google Business Data Responsibility site, which includes a detailed list of cookies associated with Google advertising and measurement products. mroberthowell 4 yr. ago Thank you so much! A torque converter clutch (TCC) is an important element of automatic transmissions because it affects fuel economy and driveability. Any reading below 10 RPM slip is really errors in reading the sensors, not real slip. A high-stall converter like a 4,000-rpm unit is not only lazy from a part-throttle-efficiency standpoint, but it also generates much more heat. by SirHandyMan Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:52 pm, Post (author diagram). (For each of these cookies, "xx" will be a cryptographic hash.) These torque converters allow some slippage but it should not vary much from the desired PCM value. Generally, by the time you reach the 60-foot mark on the dragstrip, torque multiplication is effectively eliminated and the turbine and impeller speeds are close to achieving what converter manufacturers call coupling speed. This sounds really great, and it is. Last fall, the external filter disintegrated and clogged up the cooler. That could be within the margin of error for the sensor. For more information, please see our Now that we have DISCONTINUED our use of Google Analytics tracking on this website, this cookie no longer functions no additional analytics data will be collected, with or without the cookie. The PYPF cookie normally expires in approximately four weeks, the 01A1 cookie in approximately one year. (If you need to review or change these settings after you accept, you can do so from the Privacy Tools page.) Aaron is probably now the best informed person in the world regarding the history of automatic transmission development, I appreciate the compliment, but Im really not! I don't think they had this in 2011 however. Primary symptom includes a "rumble strip" like sound randomly while driving at speeds of about 40+. Input output shaft readings are almost exactly the same when driving. Being a fluid coupler, your car's torque converter relies on transmission fluid to operate correctly. These early units operated on the same principal of using one electric fan to drive another. A lot of bad things can happen to your car when the torque converter starts failing. Contact Us - You can email the site owner to let them know you were blocked. How exactly are you measuring how much the tc is slipping? I switched from a junk converter slipping that much to a tight well built version and picked up .3 and 4mph behind a healthy smallblock (10.2's at 127mph) Unlike a reduction gear, this speed reduction doesnt multiply engine torque. For more information about Google advertising, see the "Advertising" section of their Google Privacy & Terms site. If you are experiencing shuddering, also check your engine mounts. i called a trans shop and he had no answer,but it sounded strage to him. and our The combination of a smaller-diameter and lighter converter means that less engine torque is required for acceleration. Some iterations of the Studebaker Automatic Drive/Borg-Warner DG started in first gear, but early transmissions started in second unless the driver manually selected Low. The speed difference between impeller and turbine is simply lost to heat within the operating fluid. I did the trans relearn today with the Spartan 275 tune. One or more wp-saving-post cookies may be set while creating and/or editing posts or pages, to help manage version control and the autosave feature; these cookies normally expire after about 24 hours. Your Transmission Gear Ratio at Finish Line. I cant imagine the hours of work which you must have put into understanding these various transmissions, to say nothing of writing up a description that a simpleton like me could (mostly) understand. Most street torque. To fix the problem, you need to discover the seal that's damaged and have it replaced. (PayPal.com, PayPal, and all logos related to the PayPal services are either trademarks or registered trademarks of PayPal, Inc. or its licensors. abs, do you have any recommendations on how to troubleshoot a failing torque converter using ForScan? Larger-diameter converters are usually more efficient and deliver less slippage, while smaller-diameter converters offer more stall speed and more slippage. For example, in park, it will say Desired Slip 1200, Actual: 730 (guess the engine rpm) As speed increases, the Desired Slip drops (don't remember exact numbers) as well as the actual. The only problem - there's a boat-load of information and I only know how to interpret a fraction of it. Thanks for this. Not all the listed cookies and/or data items are necessarily set in all instances, and there may sometimes be others not listed above, particularly if you are logged into a Google account. Transmission Range) start a datalog or have an assistant drive and watch Torque Converter Slip Actual (TCA) and Torque Converter Slip Desired (TCD). If it does go let us know. In this installment of Ate Up With Motor, we take a look at how GM, Ford, Chrysler, Packard, and Studebaker have approached this slippery problem from 1949 through the late eighties. The stator is called the middleman because it serves as the conduit that reverses transmission fluid and sends it back to a turbine impeller. If governor pressure dropped below that threshold, the clutch would disengage. After logging in, the wp-settings-UID cookies store the logged-in user's configuration settings, while the wp-settings-time-UID cookies record the time those configuration settings were last set; again, there may be multiple iterations of each of these cookies, which normally expire after about one year. Some vehicles have a transmission temperature indicator that will let you know when your car's transmission is overheating. Part 3 of 3 High Performance Academy Sonnax and SIU - Mega Torque. The turbine has a spline that attaches to the transmission input shaft, which connects to the internal parts of the transmission to shift gears and provide power to the wheels. As you can see I was experiencing multiple issues, all of which were exacerbating the clutch slippage and/or shuddering issue. The action you just performed triggered the security solution. This has been a quick jaunt through world of torque converters, but it should at least inspire some intelligent questions to ask your converter company of choice as to the best converter for your application. The turbine drives the front annulus through the input shaft (medium blue). This website is using a security service to protect itself from online attacks. Second, the nonlinear relationship between impeller and turbine speed can be troublesome. (We have now DISCONTINUED our use of Google Analytics tracking on this website; see the "Online Tracking" section of the Privacy Policy for more information.) You can hide the "Support Ate Up With Motor" box and prevent the loading of its embedded content by going to the "Consent Management" tab and switching the "Allow PayPal Button" toggle to "OFF." It's when you have a damaged torque converter seal that fluid leaks out and causes the overheating and damage. abs thank you for posting your experience here. Clutch material, bearing and bushing pieces, and a shiny metal flake appearance will be an indicator that things are coming apart inside. Many times, people think there is something wrong with their transmission when the problem lies with their torque converter. They normally expire in just under one year, but you can delete the cookies in your browser (or other user agent) at any time. There may be more than one of these cookies, particularly if you access several password-protected posts with different passwords. If you use the buttons to make a payment or donation, the PayPal services will set additional cookies (not listed here) to manage your PayPal login and transaction data (and potentially also for various other purposes, e.g., user analytics and/or advertising). The end result is the torque converterisn't able to transferthat power completely and efficiently from the engine to the transmission. One of the fundamental differences between a fluid clutch (a fluid coupling or torque converter) and a mechanical plate clutch is slippage. Big cars weighing over 3,300 pounds generally need a converter with more torque multiplication. 6 speed/8 speed RWD/FWD Transmission Tuning (incl T43, T76, T87) T43 Torque Converter Desired Slip. If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. During a shudder the desired will stay close to 0rpm but the act pid will go up and down in rpm. Embedded video players for content hosted on the YouTube video platform (which is owned by Google LLC) may set these third-party cookies and/or use similar technologies to store data in your browser (or other user agent) for purposes such as (without limitation) managing video settings (e.g., tailoring the playback to your connection speed), storing video preferences, providing certain functionality (e.g., allowing you to pause a video at a particular point), showing you advertisements, associating your video viewing and other activity with your Google account (if any), ensuring proper functioning of the service, preventing abuse, and/or compiling user analytics data. AE parameters when looking for tranny slip? I just checked it yesterday and it was right at the full indicator with the transmission properly warmed up. This creates the greatest speed difference between the turbine and the impeller and therefore the maximum torque multiplication. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Hence, you've commanded your torque converter every time your car shifted gears. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. The torque converter is so essential to the global car market theres a global torque converter market. Your ring and pinion (gear size) Your circumference or roll out of the rear tires. If the solenoid is not regulating the fluid flow properly, it could cause variability in the torque converter clutch performance as well. Dr. Tranny helped for a short time and then the car became entirely undriveable. by Silver Flex SEL. Except as otherwise indicated, all written content and images are copyright Aaron Severson dba Ate Up With Motor. There is more demand in today's market for increased comfort and safety in cars. The cookies normally expire in about 10 days, and are not set at all if you do not access any password-protected content. I drove only sticks for years by choice. But the catch is that this torque multiplication doesn't last very long. Since the transmission was largely dependent on the torque converter for torque multiplication, it was crucial that the lockup clutch not engage prematurely and that there be some means to immediately disengage it for acceleration. Your email address will not be published. How ever this did happen right after I did the six 0 to 60 mph relearn runs. The payment button in the "Support Ate Up With Motor" box (and similar payment or donation buttons that may appear on portions of the administrative dashboard, which is not normally accessible except to logged-in administrative users) contains embedded content served by PayPal services. I had "guessed" that it could have been a valve body issue when trying to diagnose on my own and I replaced that to no avail. iThemes is one of the Liquid Web family of brands; iThemes and Liquid Web are trademarks of Liquid Web, LLC.). I wouldn't worry about it, but I'm not familiar with your specific transmission. At idle and very low road speeds, slippage is desirable because it keeps the engine from stalling or lugging in gear. Accessing the login page sets the wordpress_test_cookie, a session cookie that tests whether the user's browser (or other user agent) will allow the cookies needed to log in to the administrative dashboard; this cookie normally expires when the user closes their browser (or other user agent). Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -. You only monitor it when the converter is locked. Your car will vibrate even when youre not going very fast. I think you should check the fluid level first and foremost. You've now repaired or replaced your torque converter if it exhibited any of the above common torque converter problems. Wallace Racing BACK to Auto Math. ), This cookie was set if you clicked the "Disable Google Analytics Tracking" link to prevent the Google Analytics service from tracking your use of the Ate Up With Motor website. A Simpson gearset (which Ill be discussing in great detail in the next few days) provides the same number of ratios from only two gearsets, and a single Ravigneaux gearset can give you four forward speeds and reverse if you have enough clutches. The logic of these schematics, which are not to scale and which have been greatly simplified for clarity, is that each color represents a set of components that are integral or otherwise connected so that they always rotate together; clutches, brake bands, planet pinions, and flywheels are shown in black or gray. Once the vehicle is moving at a constant speed, the speed difference between the impeller and turbine diminishes, eventually reaching a minimum point known as coupling stage. On some prewar bus and rail car transmissions with lockup torque converters, the lockup clutch was engaged manually, but automotive lockup clutches are designed to engage and disengage automatically. It is the lack of fluid that causes overheating, slipping, or shuddering. This overran the rear unit planet carrier, unlocking the rear sun gears one-way clutch and putting the transmission in direct drive. As long as this mechanical lockup remains fully engaged, there is no slip, which improves fuel economy (typically by around 4% at cruising speeds) and provides throttle response and engine braking comparable to a vehicle with a manual gearbox. There will typically be several such cookies, each beginning with "gdpr" (e.g., gdpr[allowed_cookies], gdpr&5Bprivacy_bar&5D, and gdpr[consent_types]). Utimately, I installed a recycled transmission from a junk yard and a remanufactured torque converter from Ford. To resolve the issue, I have reduce the desired slip to 10 rpm in 3-6th gear and increased the + side of the apply ramp table by about 10% across the board and up to 30% in the slip rpm of 2-12. I had just bought an SCT with Gearhead tunes. I changed to the Spartan V2 a few weeks ago. Only lasts from .5 seconds to 2 seconds. I havent studied the Wilson preselectors in any great detail, but if youre curious, the applicable U.S. patents are US1404675 and US1796904. Doesn't seem to coincide with vehicle shifting though. Most Torque Converters today also use a friction clutch to lock up the converter at higher speeds to create more fuel efficiency and less slip. Torque converter problems have a high impact on your car's ability to function and drive. The original Packard Ultramatic had a four-element torque converter with a single stator (light blue) interposed between the first- and second-stage turbines, providing a stall ratio of 2.4:1 at 1,600 rpm. A healthy plate clutch slips only briefly when engaged or disengaged. Do you want them slipping when driving? The TCC solenoid regulates the fluid pressure to the clutch. This will cause damage to both the transmission and the converter. Unlike a clutch where a friction plate makes physical contact with another plate and ideally the two rotate at exactly the same speed when fully engaged. When you have contaminated transmission fluid that has bits of this and that in it This is an indication that you have bigger problems inside the converter or transmission. This is a red flag that lets you know you may need an expert to repair it for you. Once governor pressure was sufficient to overcome the combined spring and throttle valve pressure, oil would be applied to the clutch cylinder, engaging the lockup clutch. its the mechanically controlled aod. The turbine and lockup clutch driven plate are both splined to the transmission input shaft (medium blue). Since the 1940s, automakers have come up with a variety of strategies for reducing or eliminating that slip, including series parallel split torque transmissions and different types of converter lockup clutches. Really bad shuddering under acceleration, etc. Thanks for copying the information from my other post here. Performance & security by Cloudflare. Required fields are marked *. If we have enabled multi-factor authentication (which requires an authentication code as well as a password to log into the administrative dashboard), the iThemes Security plugin may also set the itsec_interstitial_browser cookie during the login process. About Us - A spring-loaded plunger valve controlled oil flow to the lockup clutchs hydraulic cylinder. would it work,yet throw out aod default codes. In third gear, the Studebaker Automatic Drive/Borg-Warner DGs lockup clutch drives the transmissions output shaft at engine speed, providing a completely mechanical direct drive with no hydraulic slippage. A converter that might have a stall speed of 5,000 rpm for a pure drag car would be completely miserable on the street. check out the. I would be surprised if this is your issue at 81,000 miles. Sure, there's all kind of talk about stall speed, slippage, and lockup features, but some gearheads secretly believe there's as much voodoo to a torque converter as there is science. If the fluid becomes contaminated, anything that uses and relies on the fluid can be damaged. Well Aaron . The GM team that designed Hydra-Matic was certainly familiar with the Wilson preselector. I was monitoring some Torque converter params for my 4R55E with my in dash scantool. In this diagram, the yellow arrows show the power flow in second gear. There are a number of posts referencing this issue, look for the wires coming out from under the intake manifold behind the elbow that contains the coolant thermostat. When I replaced my transmission and converter, I replaced two mounts and the two dog bones under the engine. Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:39 am, Post Overdrive ratios drive the torque converter at speeds generally below normal coupling speed, creating increased slippage and heat, which is unacceptable. The torque converter is made up of five parts: The stator is called the middleman. When you experience fluid leaks, you aren't retaining the amount of transmission fluid; the torque converter needs to transfer the power from the engine to the transmission. We thought 10 was bad 2 years ago. Theglobal torque converter marketcontinues to grow and expand at a CAGR of 4.54%, which is projected until 2021. Diagnosing a potential Torque Converter problem with a Scan tool. With a manual transmission, you are allowed the freedom to pick the starting-line rpm you want to apply when you dump the clutch. Sep 16, 2013 #11 4 The DG series transmissions obtained their indirect ratios with a compound planetary gearset. Unlike Ultramatic and many subsequent torque converter automatics, the converter of the DG series was completely inoperative in top gear, so obtaining any additional torque multiplication required a downshift to second gear. It is not common for the knock sensors to fail, especially at such a low mileage. What to Do to Fix Your Contaminated Transmission Fluid. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. check trans fluid. Welcome to the dark world of torque converters. This is a remarkably broad, convoluted, and idiosyncratic field and theres a LOT I dont know.
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